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Postby Arnavon » Fri Mar 14, 2008 12:27 am

I'm RIGHT behind Rogue on this.. ever since I've joined this community, I've been warned OVER AND OVER by countless furs to stay clear of M.com because it's filled with Peranas. Now that I moderate another, similar Macrophile forum,.. and have looked over M.com, Rogue's absolutely right. This sort of childish behavior is exactly what sends new members away. When I first came into all of this, I really looked up to furs like Crux, Rogue, Sparky, and a few others that just otherwise seemed to not only be involved in our community, but were HELPING and BUILDING up the community as well.

I'm not attacking anyone particularly, but as a general whole our fandom needs to step up a little and present something that others are going to want to be a part of in order to grow and prosper. If everyone just hashes the newbie to pieces or tears someone up for something even relatively small, AND THEN gets away with it, what sort of message are we sending to those who haven't yet joined?

At any rate, Rogue, you have my full support.
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Postby baggy52 » Fri Mar 14, 2008 12:39 am

Arnavon wrote:what sort of message are we sending to those who haven't yet joined?


And those who lurk constantly watching all these posts, what are they getting from all this?
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Postby Rattus » Fri Mar 14, 2008 12:46 am

Arnavon wrote:If everyone just hashes the newbie to pieces or tears someone up for something even relatively small, AND THEN gets away with it, what sort of message are we sending to those who haven't yet joined?


I'd just like to point out, there is this phenomena called 'hazing', which pretty much every tighter-knit community has to one degree or another. The new guy gets it rough until he earns his stripes. It's a year of being a 'prospect' to join the Hell's Angels, a year of being a 'rookie' to earning your place as a full-blown cop, a year as a 'pledge' cleaning up other people's shit (sometimes literally) before you're accepted into a fraternity, and don't even get me started on stuff like military academies.

It builds cohesion, and a sense that all members have gone through equal issues to get their respective rank, and it makes for members with slightly tougher skins. In this respect, though, we're not that bad off. Nobody is getting sodomized with broomhandles, we're just testing the waters to see how well a person takes to criticism, sometimes ill-spirited for the sake of humor. Those who buckle and run; oh well. Those who don't generally make it all the better for themselves in the long run. I remember ribbing on Zuki pretty hard when she first came aboard for something, but she rolled with the punches very well and is quite the entertaining/insightful poster today. When Mammagamma first signed up, I saw him as a horrific idiot*, but it took less than a week for him to stop brooding and start just going with the flow, throwing back a few tongue-in-cheek comments of his own.

It's not like we can even pretend not to be elitist in this fandom. That is ingrained human nature. There will always be furry 'stars', fanboys, wannabes, and the unwashed masses filling all the other positions. A heirarchy of fags leading fags, drama leading drama. The least we can do is present this honestly from the get-go. We're not exclusivley out to make murry purry friends here. We're here for attention, surrogate familes, porn, acceptance and maybe ass (real or online). It's noble, but a disservice to lead people in using euphanisms and trying to build up a mythos about what the fandom is supposed to be, as opposed to simply how it operates.

*Okay, maybe I still do...
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Postby Arnavon » Fri Mar 14, 2008 1:02 am

and what happens to those that want to join, and they SEE that when they do they're going to be criticized and teased? they're certainly not going to flock to our fandom when they see that sort of behavior. we SHOULD be building a comfortable environment for everyone to prosper and have fun in, when it sounds to me like it's perfectly acceptable, instead, to form 'clicks'.
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Postby maxx mann » Fri Mar 14, 2008 1:18 am

Hazing? To join a site? This isn't supposed to be a club, it's supposed to be a community. I know when I first joined here I lurked for some time because I was nervous. Nervous but delighted, because I didn't know there were others who shared my macro interests.

I don't think there should be any rite of passage, or trial by embarrassing or degrading someone, in order to belong to this or any other community. In fact I think it should be just the opposite.
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Postby Arnavon » Fri Mar 14, 2008 1:25 am

maxx mann wrote:Hazing? To join a site? This isn't supposed to be a club, it's supposed to be a community. I know when I first joined here I lurked for some time because I was nervous. Nervous but delighted, because I didn't know there were others who shared my macro interests.

I don't think there should be any rite of passage, or trial by embarrassing or degrading someone, in order to belong to this or any other community. In fact I think it should be just the opposite.


bless you!! XD
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Postby Killosk » Fri Mar 14, 2008 1:33 am

Clubs are small communities. As for hazing or not, you can't accommodate everyone. I think that pruning the stupid out of a community is a good thing in the end, as I imagine people would be much more likely to join a community that appears to be intelligent versus one where it's a large group of people spewing essentially white noise.

While I'm not saying they're mutually exclusive, in this context it looks like we more or less have to choose between an intelligent yet hostile community, or a stupid one where everyone happily ignores some of the dumbest statements spewed on the internet ever since AOL Teen Chat tried to discuss religion.
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Postby Rattus » Fri Mar 14, 2008 2:14 am

Arnavon wrote:and what happens to those that want to join, and they SEE that when they do they're going to be criticized and teased? they're certainly not going to flock to our fandom when they see that sort of behavior.


Well, in part, the fandom isn't just consisting of one forum. There will always be FA, Furcadia, and Furry2Furry for people who want an absolutley zero judging environment. These places are, as Killosk pointed out, full of heinous amounts of stupidity. Any trek to the LJ-based '____Horros' community or whatnot will show this. The bigger issue with inclusion, especially of the geek social fallacy variety, is that not having some standard for 'you're too fucking out there' leads to an inability to judge people as being wrong for the group (save for if they're mean, of course). This is what leads to stuff like the 'cub' porn debacle on FA or the apologists for babyfurs who shit themselves in public.

Beyond that, cliques aren't a big issue. We have a million sub-segments of furry anyway, and they (like pedofurs or serious nazifurs) can be much worse off in general than just the little circle of popular kids who used to pick on you in high school. They'll be around regardless.

It really comes down to striking a balance, and maybe hazing was the wrong word, but you're under unwritten probationary periods regardless of the community, group, club or whatever you join. From the Shriners to your local church. In the fandom, this is just the thing to sort out the blatantly insane, rottenly ignorant and explosive personality types.
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Postby padfootsm » Fri Mar 14, 2008 2:19 am

I think the main point here is that Rogue is just reminding people of a very useful function, something that not everyone is aware of.

Ignore. It's a simple option to those who feel like they're drowning in a sea of horrible comments from one or two people in particular and just don't want to see it anymore.

After all, not everyone on this board is a 'troll' or just seeking to belittle others in order to feel better about themselves somehow. I'd say a solid majority here (Hopefully. =P) still love to encourage and share their thoughts. We may not have the time to always be around, such as in my case, but I still am here and enjoy this site immensely.

It's a good option for some. Tired of reading it? Ignore em. They'll be gone for good to you.
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Postby Arnavon » Fri Mar 14, 2008 2:20 am

Rattus wrote:
Arnavon wrote:and what happens to those that want to join, and they SEE that when they do they're going to be criticized and teased? they're certainly not going to flock to our fandom when they see that sort of behavior.


Well, in part, the fandom isn't just consisting of one forum. There will always be FA, Furcadia, and Furry2Furry for people who want an absolutley zero judging environment. These places are, as Killosk pointed out, full of heinous amounts of stupidity. Any trek to the LJ-based '____Horros' community or whatnot will show this. The bigger issue with inclusion, especially of the geek social fallacy variety, is that not having some standard for 'you're too fucking out there' leads to an inability to judge people as being wrong for the group (save for if they're mean, of course). This is what leads to stuff like the 'cub' porn debacle on FA or the apologists for babyfurs who shit themselves in public.

Beyond that, cliques aren't a big issue. We have a million sub-segments of furry anyway, and they (like pedofurs or serious nazifurs) can be much worse off in general than just the little circle of popular kids who used to pick on you in high school. They'll be around regardless.

It really comes down to striking a balance, and maybe hazing was the wrong word, but you're under unwritten probationary periods regardless of the community, group, club or whatever you join. From the Shriners to your local church. In the fandom, this is just the thing to sort out the blatantly insane, rottenly ignorant and explosive personality types.



Sooooo... you're actually going to sit here and tell me that simply because someone is new to the fandom means they should be teased and hazed to find out if they're dumb, and then if they are run them off the forum?

as i said before if THAT'S how you'd try and build a community, you wouldn't get very far. The way you keep the dumbies out isn't by chasing them out, because again you're setting a terrible example for those who AREN'T dumb who may want to join,... if you want them gone simply ignore them.. after a while they'll simply grow disinterested and leave. I've seen it happen dozens of times.
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